hila iyani ale hila nania

[ᎢᏌᏪᎳ]

Hi,
Can someone PLEASE help me understand the difference between hila iyani and hila nania?

I understand what hila iga means: How much/many (inanimate objects)

Here's what he said about these two:

hila iyani - how many of (but in reference to LIVING things but NOT plants or trees)
hila nania - how many are there of… (LIVING THINGS)

I understand they are both for living things, but I just don't get the difference-
if I were asking someone in English "How many cats?" (wesa hila iyani)
or "How many cats are there?", literally "How many are there of cats?" (wesa hila nania)

The difference is "are there".
But the "are there" in 'How many cats' is inferred...so I just DONT get when to use which one...

ᏩᏙ
ᎢᏌᏪᎳ

[molbolom]

Well, the best I can think of is that nania (nanivi in the past tense) is more like aya and nihi (I or me, and you) where as iyani is more like a plural -s at the end of a noun. Cats, iyani wesa. They are cats. Nania wesa. Etc.

I've seen variants of nania used with sidvnela to mean one's family.
nania sidvnela "His/her/it's family", "Their family"
noji sidvnela "My family"

hila naniv = How many were there? (Not how many were over there)

hila iyani gesv = How many were there?

Though, there really aren't any "specific" rules for using any of these forms. One can add plurals to any numerous of words and still be comprehensible.

There were three cats who were living under the house.
ahwinididlv gahltsode anehv anitsoi wesa. (Living plural on the number, though only two and three can have the plural)
ahwinididlv gahltsode anehv naniv tsoi wesa. (naniv)
ahwinididlv gahltsode anehv tsoiyani wesa. (iyani)
ahwinididlv gahltsode anehv tsoi wesa. (No plural form except for what's used with the verb -ehv)

Also not to mention one can move these words around depending on how they might be thinking at the moment.

[ᎢᏌᏪᎳ]

Well, ᏩᏙ for the explanation.

So are iyani and nania two different ways to say basically the same thing?
Or is nania more possessive? (Like, if you said "hila nania wesa" you'd really be asking the other person how many cats HE/SHE has, vs. with iyani you'd be asking a basic 'how many cats (do you see)".)


Gosh I think I may have to go back and learn more English (which is my first language!)

ᏩᏙ,
ᎢᏌᏪᎳ

[Jolajuhahli]

The first one means, how many will there be, and the other is how many are there. I hope this is plain enough.

[molbolom]

Well, ᏩᏙ for the explanation.

So are iyani and nania two different ways to say basically the same thing?
Or is nania more possessive? (Like, if you said "hila nania wesa" you'd really be asking the other person how many cats HE/SHE has, vs. with iyani you'd be asking a basic 'how many cats (do you see)".)


Gosh I think I may have to go back and learn more English (which is my first language!)

ᏩᏙ,
ᎢᏌᏪᎳ

Went a little too far with my explanation last night.

Anyway, it's not possessive. It is similar, and yet it is not similar.

Gosh I think I may have to go back and learn more English (which is my first language!)

Well, this isn't English. The French, Germans, English, etc had lived amongst each other for thousands of years, and traded/warred with one another often. So their languages would have naturally evolved together where one concept could be translated into another language. Cherokee, which was separated by thousands of miles of water evolved separately from those.

Though, I have done no research into the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, etc languages, I would expect that since those peoples interacted with one another the concepts in one language could be translated with ease in another, and the same may be said of Japanese, Chinese, etc in comparison to the European languages.

Eh, going a little too far again. Either way, I have been told often that "Cherokee isn't English" by a few of the Cherokee's I've met, and they are right. Therefore, you shouldn't worry too much if something can be translated differently and still mean the same thing in English. Just learn what you can, and try out new words you learn as well.

From what you wrote in the first post (Removing the English).
[quote=ᎢᏌᏪᎳ]
hila iyani -
hila nania -

wesa hila iyani
wesa hila nania
[/quote]

Even though I word the last two differently, I can still read all four sentences without any problems. So if needs be, start a thread or use this one, and practice using them in as many ways as you can. Like an old saying goes "Practice makes perfect".

[ᎢᏌᏪᎳ]

Wado Jolajuhahli and Tsali...
vv Jolajuhahli simple is best-I got your definition, that's not what my teacher said it was...but I think this IS a case of "Cherokee isn't English" and as much as I like to dissect things and put them in order, Cherokee is certainly teaching me to chill out on that tendency. It's not about getting things perfectly.

Tsali, vv, simple is really best, my brain was getting melty just trying to understand the two words, let alone extra added info...

wado for trying folks...I'll put it on the back burner for now...

I DO wish my teacher would break any verb he gives us into ALL it's different conjugations...that would help I think, but, (sigh) I'll let it go...
ᏣᎳᎩ ≠ ᏲᏁᎦ

ᏩᏙ
ᎢᏌᏪᎳ

[Jbuchanan]

I can only presume you are talking of the classes with Ed Fields? I too am taking these and had the same misunderstanding of the two phrases. Time is cut to an hour with Ed and sometimes sidebar conversation runs rampant. I would love to be able to spend a year or more just dedicated to learning from Ed or anyone that is a fluent speaker.

[ᎹᎦᎵ]

I DO wish my teacher would break any verb he gives us into ALL it's different conjugations...that would help I think, but, (sigh) I'll let it go...

I don't think you know what you are asking for.

I will demonstrate: "sees" (any errors in the following conjugations are my own inventions)

Gvgotiha. I see you.
Sgigotiha. You see me.
Sdvgotiha. I see you two.
Sginigotiha. You two see me.
Ijvgotiha. I see you all.
Isgigotiha. You all see me.
Jigotiha. I see it/him.
Agigotiha. He sees me.
Gajigotiha. I see them. (alive)
Gvgigotiha. They see me.
Dejigotiha. I see them (not alive).
Higotiha. You (one) see him/her/it.
Jagotiha. He sees you (one).
Gahigotiha. You (one) see them. (alive)
Dehigotiha. You (one) see them. (not alive)
Gejigotiha. You all see them.
Esdigotiha. You two see him.
Sdigotiha. You two see it.
Desdigotiha. You two see them (not alive)
Gesdigotiha. You two see them (alive)
Ejigotiha. You all see him.
Ijigotiha. You all see it.
Editogitha. We see him.
Idigotiha. We see it.
Igigotiha. He sees us.
Gedigotiha. We see them (alive)
Dedigotiha. We seem them (not alive)
Gegigotiha. They see us.
Enigotiha. You and I see him.
Inigotiha. You and I see it.
Ginigotiha. He sees you and me.
Genigotiha. You and I see them (alive)
Denigotiha. You and I see them (not alive)
Geginigotiha. They see you and me.
Osdigotiha. He and I see him/her/it.
Oginigotiha. He sees him and me.
Gosdigotiha. He and I see them. (alive)
Dosdigotiha. He and I see them. (not alive)
Goginigotiha. They see him and me.
Ojigotiha. They and I see him/it.
Ogigotiha. They and I see it.
Gojigotiha. They and I see them. (alive)
Dojigotiha. They and I see them. (not alive)
Gogigotiha. They see them and me.
Agotiha. he sees him/it.
Anigotiha. They see him/it.
Dagotiha. He sees them. (alive & not alive)
Danigotiha. They see them (alive & not alive)